Apple Silicon Mac Pro Revealed at WWDC 2023

[pastrychef]

For me, a computer is something that runs the software I prefer to use/have been using for years.
Snow Leopard as an OS was fine. I don't care for most of the inventions and add ons since OS 10.6.8.
Airdrop is nice. I fail to come up with anything else.
Mind you, I am not an iCloud user. Don't use FaceBook/Twitter/Instagram.
Basically I use Mail/Safari & Chrome/Evernote/Cubase/Logic Pro/Adobe Photo Suite/Spotify/Carbon Copy Cloner/Backblaze on my hack. These programs have been working OK for me for the last 10 years or so(except probably Backblaze, been using that for just 2 years).
I detest the mandatory yearly MacOS upgrades with their mostly useless upgrades and changes.

I'm surprised that Safari included with Snow Leopard is still functional today as web standards are continually evolving. I know that you won't be able to use any modern ad blocker extensions with that version of Safari. That alone would make it pretty unusable to me... Even HEVC/H.265 (extremely common nowadays) and WebM videos won't work.

I still have a "working" PowerBook Pismo running Mac OS 9 somewhere in the closet but it's pretty useless for interacting with anything internet related. I would not want use this as my daily driver today.

Even Firefox announced that they are dropping support for Mojave and older a few weeks ago.

OS updates include things like support for evolving standards, security patches, performance improvements, etc. It's far from "useless".

If someone handed you a USB drive formatted in APFS with some H.265 videos, Office 2021 docs, and Photoshop and Illustrator 2023 files, you won't be able do anything with them. What about things like Zoom/Microsoft Teams/Facetime/Webex? These "useless" features were essential during the pandemic lockdowns. Yes, Snow Leopard can still work, as does my Pismo on Mac OS 9, but interacting/collaborating with others would be difficult if not impossible, but, yes, Snow Leopard and Mac OS 9 will continue to work indefinitely.

 

[UtterDisbelief]

An interesting video by Louis Rossmann about the direction certain Apple Silicon models have taken. Of course it features repairability, but it also illuminates an area I wasn't fully aware of -

For my AS Macs I always had a backup SSD in an enclosure I could boot the machine from if the internal SSD failed. Turns out this was a fools errand as it would not work ...

No need to watch the whole video, just the first few minutes before the actual repair.

 

[pastrychef]

An interesting video by Louis Rossmann about the direction certain Apple Silicon models have taken. Of course it features repairability, but it also illuminates an area I wasn't fully aware of -

For my AS Macs I always had a backup SSD in an enclosure I could boot the machine from if the internal SSD failed. Turns out this was a fools errand as it would not work ...

No need to watch the whole video, just the first few minutes before the actual repair.

Yup. Can't boot from external SSD if the built-in SSD is not functional. If the NAND fails, they must be replaced in order for the Mac to boot.

 

[c-o-pr]

This presentation is gross reasoning.

From the very get-go he claims that soldered devices are "a cancer" then next sentence contradicts the point by offering a compelling reason to so do in terms of the precise product space in which Apple leads: the phone.

ASIDE—The AppleSi Mac is a direct consequence of the iPhone!

After the immediate, open self-contradiction, he rapidly fires off multiple straw-man points:
- Arbitrary distinction between phones and desktops WRT to wear;
- Flash wear is a limit for adoption/satisfaction;
- Makes-up a number for write burden, then repeats claim that there's an expectation for "a lot of write cycles" without any analysis whatsoever.
- Assumes that built-in storage rather than add-on storage is primary working area for "high-end video, grpahics," etc;
- Proposes that decades of life for any component has any bearing in the market.
- Red-herring comparison of cost between computer and phone.
- Takes "offense" at the hazard of "dead SSDs" which is a problem that, so far, nobody has.
- Overlooks lack of any experience with true cost of repairs for guts in event that such a dead SSD problem might manifest: Apple has a history of failures of major guts of many models due to GPU and other soldered components, which somehow everyone has survived without crippling Apple's value and which should carry more weight in analysis because it's actually been a problem. No one argues that Macbook GPUs should be user-replaceable!

Assuming Apple actually studies its market, its products and is interested in progressing, any critique would be wise to assume that Apple has made the choice to glue Macs together for very good reasons.

Sure, it could be a disaster! But it would be more fair to begin the presentation with an examination of how it's going wrong for most users.

All this question-begging and woolgathering appears within the first minute—literally—of the presentation. I'll listen to the rest of it, but it's off to a ridiculous start.

 

[UtterDisbelief]

This presentation is gross reasoning.

From the very get-go he claims that soldered devices are "a cancer" then next sentence contradicts the point by offering a compelling reason to so do in terms of the precise product space in which Apple leads: the phone.

ASIDE—The AppleSi Mac is a direct consequence of the iPhone!

After the immediate, open self-contradiction, he rapidly fires off multiple straw-man points:
- Arbitrary distinction between phones and desktops WRT to wear;
- Flash wear is a limit for adoption/satisfaction;
- Makes-up a number for write burden, then repeats claim that there's an expectation for "a lot of write cycles" without any analysis whatsoever.
- Assumes that built-in storage rather than add-on storage is primary working area for "high-end video, grpahics," etc;
- Proposes that decades of life for any component has any bearing in the market.
- Red-herring comparison of cost between computer and phone.
- Takes "offense" at the hazard of "dead SSDs" which is a problem that, so far, nobody has.
- Overlooks lack of any experience with true cost of repairs for guts in event that such a dead SSD problem might manifest: Apple has a history of failures of major guts of many models due to GPU and other soldered components, which somehow everyone has survived without crippling Apple's value and which should carry more weight in analysis because it's actually been a problem. No one argues that Macbook GPUs should be user-replaceable!

Assuming Apple actually studies its market, its products and is interested in progressing, any critique would be wise to assume that Apple has made the choice to glue Macs together for very good reasons.

Sure, it could be a disaster! But it would be more fair to begin the presentation with an examination of how it's going wrong for most users.

All this question-begging and woolgathering appears within the first minute—literally—of the presentation. I'll listen to the rest of it, but it's off to a ridiculous start.

You make very valid points.

I'm not particularly a fan of Mr Rossmann but I admire his technical ability. If I've understood correctly his "attitude" and presentation is down to being autistic to some degree (?)

Anyway, from my standpoint I own a Mac Mini M2 and am very happy with it.

I just hadn't realised there there was no "Plan B" if the onboard SSD failed, other than replacing it. As that would preferably have to be new parts for me, then the use of scavenged parts that Mr R was talking about wouldn't be on my radar at all.

Aside from all this, wouldn't it be nice to get the real perspective and analysis from Apple themselves? To understand why they make the decisions they do?

 

[pastrychef]

You make very valid points.

I'm not particularly a fan of Mr Rossmann but I admire his technical ability. If I've understood correctly his "attitude" and presentation is down to being autistic to some degree (?)

Anyway, from my standpoint I own a Mac Mini M2 and am very happy with it.

I just hadn't realised there there was no "Plan B" if the onboard SSD failed, other than replacing it. As that would preferably have to be new parts for me, then the use of scavenged parts that Mr R was talking about wouldn't be on my radar at all.

Aside from all this, wouldn't it be nice to get the real perspective and analysis from Apple themselves? To understand why they make the decisions they do?

The following videos explain things far better than I ever could...

Yes, SSDs have a finite lifespan. However, under normal usage, most users will probably never hit that limit.

• I've had my Mac Studio for ~1.5 years now and the 2TB SSD lifetime is still at 99%.
• The 1TB WD SN750 NVMe in my laptop has been in use for over 3 years now and lifetime is at 98%.
• The 2TB Micron 1100 SATA in my Docker server has been in use for over 5.5 years and lifetime is at 94%. (This one is written to very heavily.)

Realistically, the NAND flash of these three SSDs will outlast not only the useable lifespan of the systems they are attached to but my lifespan, as well.

Is it possible to accelerate the death of the NAND? Yes. Hypothetically, if you have very little RAM and very little free space on the SSD, constant RAM swapping and lack of available space for "wear leveling" on the SSD can accelerate the deterioration of the SSD. This would probably also degrade the overall performance of the system considerably.

Also, the systems the above SSDs are installed in will also probably be antiques or in the Smithsonian by the time the wear on the SSDs become an issue.

MacBooks have had soldered SSDs for quite a few years now... iPhones and iPads even longer... If it were truly a problem, don't you think Apple would've abandoned it by now? They abandoned the Butterfly Keyboard...

 

[c-o-pr]

I just hadn't realised there there was no "Plan B" if the onboard SSD failed

Can it boot from external?

I heard there was a problem with this early in M series but haven't kept up on it.

---

My habits are conditioned by the previous reality of fragile spinners.

But maybe we don't have to think like that any more?

Not only are Apple's SSDs apparently very reliable, but the advantage of soldered drives is the elimination of the risk ESD damage, which is not uncommon.

OTOH I still keep disaster-recovery backups of SSDs. For a hackintosh, caution is recommended because the devices are hand-assembled, parts are at risk of incompatibility, and config mistakes or bugs can clobber an installation.

 

[pastrychef]

Can it boot from external?

I heard there was a problem with this early in M series but haven't kept up on it.

If the built-in SSD is working, booting from external drives work.

 

[UtterDisbelief]

If the built-in SSD is working, booting from external drives work.

Yes, that's what Mr Rossmann said.

He explained both the T2 problem and the inbuilt disabling of the onboard SSD when it has failed. To be more clear, basically he said that you need some working onboard SSD if you wish to boot externally.

Now I have no idea if he is correct but this was why I said I now had no "plan B". I have always maintained a spare external SSD with the hope that if my M1/2 machine's SSD fails I can at least boot from that. He says not - if the onboard has failed.I

Yes, I hope he is wrong.

 

[trs96]

I said I now had no "plan B". I have always maintained a spare external SSD with the hope that if my M1/2 machine's SSD fails I can at least boot from that.

If I owned an M1/M2 Mac with the smaller base 256 GB SSD I would boot from a larger External NVMe via a TH3/4 port. A 1TB WD SN850X is just 60 bucks today. The read and write speeds will be close to 2,800 MB/s second with even a moderately good NVMe. With the 850X it's guaranteed. This will lead to less wear and tear on the internal Apple SSD and it should last as long as you own the ASi Mac. Just my 2 cents.